Asheville mayor, assistant DA, sheriff ask for more funds

An Anti-Crime Summit sparked pushback from some Asheville and Buncombe County officials during the two-hour, early-afternoon session on June 16 in A-B Tech’s Ferguson Auditorium in Asheville.

A crowd, estimated at about 200 people, attended the summit that was organized, hosted and moderated by U.S. Rep. Chuck Edwards, R-Henderson County. 

While the meeting generally was civil, early on, Asheville Mayor Esther Manheimer, a panelist, snatched the microphone out of the hands of Edwards, who was speaking, and interrupted the congressman by interjecting, “We know what causes the problems we’re seeing on the streets. It’s because we’re failing to address the basic root causes: quality safe housing, quality health care and quality education — the state’s not investing in education anymore.”

Manheimer’s interruption occurred as Edwards was criticizing David Denninger, a Buncombe assistant district attorney serving on the panel, for contending that additional federal and state funding was the best solution to resolve the violent crime problem in Asheville in particular and Buncombe in general. 

After Edwards’ opening remarks, each of the 14 panelists was called upon by him to give a brief self-introduction.

What’s more, Edwards noted he has “so many qualified people who volunteered to serve on the panel that not everyone will be able to speak” during the summit.

An unidentified man in the audience then interjected, “Will there be an opportunity for the citizens to speak and ask questions?”

In response, Edwards asked that “people not speak out of line… and added that “if there is time at the end, questions from the crowd will be accepted.”

Chris Swecker, a panelist, said, “Some people might say we can arrest our way out of a problem, but that’s never been the case.

“There’s a disproportionately small number of people who are responsible for a large portion of crime.

“So it’s about prevention… It’s about identifying repeat offenders. This model has been successful.”

Edwards then asked Swecker,  “How do you measure recidivism?”

To that, Swecker replied, “Every department has some component with ‘intelligence’ — we can identify repeat offenders by using good technology.”

However, he lamented, “For every one time there’s a successful prosecution, there are a dozen who are let off.”

Edwards then called on Andrew Murray, the district attorney from Henderson and Polk counties, who said, “I would certainly agree with Chris, as we certainly have ‘analytics’... We have a major drug problem. Everyone here knows that. Everyone here has seen that. It is a major problem — we see drugs every day. It’s what’s causing most of our crime, along with mental health issues. 

“You have to feed that hunger (addiction) — by committing crimes. That’s where our crime is coming from (drugs). That, along with mental health… We don’t have many tools to refer to mental health. It’s a problem across the street. Analytics are important.

“Recidivism is a problem (too). We have some people with as many as 70 crimes on their record. Why? Because they have a drug problem, It happens until we take them off the streets,” Murray said.

Next Edwards asked, “Are there laws that are missing or need to be changed to allow us to take folks off the streets — or are we lacking the will to prosecute?”

Murray answered, “Initially, it is a matter of trying to get them to change their ways. But once you are ‘trafficking,’ there are plenty of laws to take them off the streets, if the prosecutors are willing to do that.

“In my opinion, those people need to come off the streets,” Murray added.

Someone in the audience then exclaimed, “Amen,” and many in the crowd clapped in support of Murray.

Edwards then asked about “specific types of mental health.”

Murray replied, “All of us know when you see someone with difficulties with basic behavior function problems.

“And those resources are not available — at least to us in the criminal justic system.”

Swecker added, “A visible security presence will prevent crime,” triggering the summit’s second outbreak of audience applause.

At that point, Buncombe Assistant District Attorney David Denninger who appeared on behalf of Buncombe DA Todd, Williams interjected, “Recidivists do cause crimes. Why are they ‘recidivists?’ We have problems, sure, in this community... Most of the drug crime is the result of parent neglect, homelessness.... I’m thrilled for the congressman to call the crime summit, but what we need most, congressman, is resources...

“Fifteen percent of the homeless in Asheville started elsewhere. We (Asheville and Buncombe) are kind of the ‘ICU’ (intensive care unit” for Western Carolina for the homeless. 

“We have more resources than anyone else (in WNC)… So what we need is funding to support these efforts. We can be tough on crime, but let’s be smart on it, too.”

Edwards responded, “I’d like to follow up with a question with the issue that everyone is always saying they need more resources. At the same time, taxpayers are stretched already. At what point do we need to start prioritizing mental health resources in the budget that already exist? Are there things we’re spending money on that are not as important?”

Denninger fired back, “ Compare the $180 per day in jail versus expenditure on resources in that way” — and the latter course would be less expensive.

Edwards then asked Denninger to stop speaking out-of-turn at the summit without first being recognized by him, as he was serving as the meeting moderator, and aspired to maintain order and the respect of the panelists.

He also accused Denninger of dodging his question and said the assistant DA spoke “like someone who is preparing to run for public office.”

Shortly thereafter, a visibly angry Manheimer, Asheville’s mayor, suddenly reached over, grabbed the microphone from Edwards’ hands and asserted, “You (Edwards) are asking how we keep that (crime) from happening in the first place.”

She said the answer was, as Denninger had contended, more funding for the resources that treat mental health, homelessness and drug addiction, among other maladies. Her comments drew applause from the crowd.

Manheimer then returned the microphone to Edwards, who said, “We’re not going to get that answer today. All the talk I hear is of the resources that are needed. Our resources are not unlimited. Our taxpayers resources can only be stretched so far.”

Then, in comments director to Denninger, Edwards said that “he didn’t mean any disrespect in accusing him of dodging the question.”

Next, Edwards introduced ADP Chief David Zack, who began by asking, rhetorically, “Where do we go from here?”

In answering his own question, Zack said, “I think the staffing issues at the APD are very well documented. We know there is a crisis across the country where people are choosing to leave or not to go into the profession. There’s been an issue with recruitment for at least 15 years now...

“The size of your (police) department — those are your ‘resources.’

“We’re suffering from a lack of resources on the mental health side… on the addiction side… housing….”

Further, Zack said, “I’m just here about crime. I’m just the police ‘resource’... Where do we go from here? If I had the answer, I wouldn’t be sitting at this table, I’d be at a much larger” in Washington, D.C.

As for crime, “We have seen a five-year increase totaling 38 percent in the last five years” in Asheville, he said.

“In 2020, we had historic numbers of crimes, but we’ve seen those numbers come down a bit...

“We’re just part of the system. The police make the arrests,” but then the cases go to “the DA… the judges — I have some serious concerns about them,” as so many cases are dismissed.

“So where do we go from here?” Zack asked once again. “We keep moving forward — and my officers are doing a hell of a job!” The audience applauded the Asheville police chief’s assertion.

Edwards then noted that he has heard a lot of complaints about panhandling.

“Panhandling is a violation of law, but we lack the resources to enforce it,” Zack replied. “We can’t arrest our way out of it. What will deter it is the presence of the police. We know… that when they see the uniform, the uniform presents an expectation of behavior....

“Arrests, fines and citations… are those going to be long-term solutions?” Zack asked, rhetorically. “No, I don’t think so.”

Later, former long-time Buncombe Sheriff Van Duncan said, “I think these problems are caused by much bigger social issues. It’s not ‘either/or.’

“You actually have repeat offenders out there who are putting in ‘hard time’. So we’re talking about repeat offenders — we’re not just putting them in jail. These people have an opportunity to go a better way.”

Duncan then expressed concern about the downtown Asheville business-owners and their efforts — admidst the crime spike — to keep their businesses open, which drew applause from the audience.

Edwards added, “I think the citizens also have a responsibility to hold all of us accountable... Is there a source where we can get that information on whether someone’s a repeat offender? How do we know?”

Duncan replied, “Officers can get that information… I do agree” with a previous panelist who said “that it’s a small amount of folks who cause a lot of the problems.

Zack asked, rhetorically, “Recidivism — or repeat offenders — how do we address them? In January 2023, we arrested someone and got out on $2,500 bond. Someone else we arested for a serious crime and was let out on a similarly small bond. 

“Someone has to answer for it!” Zack asserted, triggering applause from the crowd. 

In a verbal jab at the DA’s office, the Asheville police chief also said, “We can’t have a ‘revolving door’ in the DA’s office.”

Denninger, the Buncombe assistant DA serving on the panel, said of the bonds that Zack cited, “We do that routinely.”

Undeterred, Zack said, “Apparently, someone in that (Buncombe DA’s) office thought this individual would abstain from crime for the next six months” by setting the bond so low.”

After a pause, Zack asserted, “I disagree wholeheartedly” with the DA’s office procedures on setting low bonds, prompting more applause from the audience.

Later in the meeting, Edwards called on Buncombe Sheriff Quentin Miller to speak, as he also expressed his gratitude to Miller “for providing deputies for security at A-B Tech” for the anti-crime summit.

Miller said, “I think we all understand that we’re all living in a different time. it’s easy to point fingers. That means we, as law enforcement, don’t have all the answers. If we had all the answers, we wouldn’t be here today...

”As for resources, it (crime) doesn’t go away. If you don’t have the resources, you can’t do it. If you don’t have the resources, you won’t have the resources on the street.

“You can see that Buncombe County crime has gone down for the last three years. We had 16 homicides in the last year and we charged 16 people,” Miller said, prompting applause from the audience.

“The tips coming from communities is how a lot of things are solved. If you have problems, I tell people to take a mirror, look into the mirror, and tell me how you can help law enforcement.

"We should be held accountable, but we also want you (the public) to be accountable

“In closing, I will agree the APD has been out there ‘busting their hump’ — and to the chief (Zack) — I want to thank him for doing a good job.” Miller’s comments drew further applause from the crowd. 

Edwards then asked Miller “to be frank about people pointing the finger” at law enforcement for crime problems.

“That’s pretty easy,” Miller said. “I ask citizens what they think about things — and they say it’s bad. And I ask them what they are doing to help it. If we know someone who has mental health problems, call somebody… We also talk about repeat offenders. None of these programs work without support of law enforcement.”

Edwards said to Miller, “That’s frank enough, but I’m going to put you even more on the spot…. On a scale of one to 10 (with 10 the highest) how do you feel your office in general is respected by the community in the normal interaction with the public?”

Miller replied that “that’s probably an unfair question. But I will tell you about my commissioners, who support me every time. 

“I’ll tell you we’re doing a better job” by splitting the county “into zones... Our entire sherrifs office is entirely community-engaged.”

“I’d say a ‘10,’ but I think my folks would say 7 or 8.” Pausing, Miller then said he just looked out at his officers out in crowd at the summit and saw them saying “10.”

Edwards then asked Zack the same question — and added, “To what degree do your officers feel respected in the community?”

Zack answered, “I think we’ve come a long way since 2020, with COVID and civil unrest. If you’d asked me that question in 2020, I’d say it was very low. But support has been there and continues to be there. We know what we’re doing well. He (the sheriff) and I are running highly respected, well-run organizations.

“However, the vilification from certain media outlets continues to be a problem. There are certain media outlets that double, quadruple down on it.” Zack’s comments drew one of the loudest outbursts of applause from the crowd at the summit. 

Further, Zack said, “The police can’t be on every corner, but the community can. Both the APD and the BCSO have very effective community tip lines. It wasn’t very long ago that we were hearing ‘Defund the police.’ Now we’re hearing from people saying, ‘No, that’s not the way we want it!” Zack again was greeted by loud and sustained applause from the audience,

Miller then added, “I think it’s time to stop talking… The sheriff’s office in Buncombe County is the only one in the state to have an advisory board. So we’re held accountable.”

Still later, Edwards called on Zack Wallace of the Asheville Area Chamber of Commerce, who said, “I hear these stories about these business whose employees are assaulted coming to and from work... We hear a lot about negative reviews against establishments in areas outside their control, just outside of their business...

“We don’t think this is a problem unique to Asheville. We continue talking about innovative solution… We continue to talk about a bsiness improvement district.

“I think the ‘presence’ (of law enforcement offiers) downtown, seeing officers” has helped to ease the city’s crime fears, as “they’ve never seen them before and are hoping to see them again.”

Edwards said to Wallace, “I think you just struck at the heart of what’s important here in Western North Carolina — regardless of what the data says, folks just want to feel safe... So thanks for sharing that.”

Edwards then said, “Chief Zack, I’m going to ask you a follow-up question regarding the future” — if any — of the initiative to increase the presence of officers downtown.

“This was not an effort that was just the police department,” Zack replied. “There were public works, fire department” and others. “So this was a citywide effort. We labeled ourselves with a 60-day initiative, but there’s not a (deadline)…. So it isn’t over. This is going to be an ongoing effort. 

“You also need a presence of city workers — members of the fire department or parks department. There is no expiration date on this effort. From time to time, will there be more or fewer police? Yes. We make those adjustments. It came time to stop talking and make more effort. So, no, there’s no expiration date. We will continue.”

With 15 minutes left in the two-hour meeting, Edwards said, “Mayor, you have been very patient.” He said he would give her as much time as she needed to speak. 

Manheimer said, “I’m a lawyer and a I see what you’re talking about. I think what I’m seeing is a magnification of Western North Carolina problems.

“Asheville is the economic hub in Western North Carolina. It has the greatest daytime to nighttime population change of any city in North Carolina. And so we should all be invested in a strong Asheville and Buncombe County.

“So when I see national coverage in the news about high crime in Asheville, I think about the company that didn’t locate here. It has real consequences when we sling partisan politics at each other. 

“We are being successful” in efforts to stem crime. “I want to thank the chief and sheriff for their efforts…I also want to thank our fire department that has started a community responder program.”

Manheimer then she has talked to homeless people. She spoke, with hope and optimism, about a homeless teenager who had killed someone — and “who now is graduating from prison high school.”

To Edwards, Manheimer said, “I hope you will speak to Congress, asking them to help these people...

“I think we’ve dismantled a lot of that. During the pandemic, we were given the most resources to the city by the federal government and we’ve used those resources well — to bring public housing online. The Asheville mayor’s comments drew light applause from the crowd.

“So we have a lot happening. So I’m hopeful Congress understands that and sees it because we have a lot of people willing to do it in WNC.” Manheimer’s comments against drew relatively light applause.

Edwards later called on state Rep. Caleb Rudow “to give his perspective on the conversation of today.”

Rudow said, “I’d like to echo the (Asheville) mayor’s comments that this has been a refreshing break from partisan politics. 

“I hear about crime occasionally, but I hear more about needing more health care. Part of the good news, on the state level, is we have a (fund) surplus. 

“I’d like to give another ‘shout-out’ to Sheriff Miller. What he said was: ‘You can come to our after-school program on Friday.’ We need to be focusing on those long-term solutions so they can safe, prosperous lives.”

Further, Rudow said, “I want to push back a little back, as we (as politicians) are part of the media. What I heard from the chief and sheriff  that there are good things going on that you don’t hear about.”

Edwards then said, “We only have three minutes left. I’m going to take the liberty to fill in those three minutes. Let me assure you this conversation is not over. I am so encouraged to hear that all of us have the same goal. 

“We have some differences of opinion on how we can reduce crime. There’s no reason that this region should become known as a high-crime area.”

To Manheimer, Edwards said, “I do appreciate your criticism about my press release.

“I refuse to accept that citizens in this district do not feel safe to visit downtown Asheville at night or weekends

“I think we have incredible leadership in this room. We definitely have the same constitueny base.”

 At that point, an unidentified man in the crowd interrupted Edwards and requested to be allowed to ask a question.

Edwards ignored him, and said, “I applaud the fact that things continue to get better.” He thanked “everyone for getting together with us this afternoon — thank you.. We’ll get back in touch.”