Gun debate takes aim at solutions

FLETCHER — A “Guns in America” debate got heated at times, but all participatns emerged unscathed on Jan. 24 at the WNC Agricultural Center.

The debate, hosted by Asheville’s WLOS-TV (News 13) and moderated by Mark Hyman, drew about 150 people, packing the debate room. Hyman is vice president for corporate relations for Sinclair Corp., owner of WLOS.

Catching the most flak from the mostly pro-gun crowd were panelists Gail McNeill, a liberal who has run for political office locally; and Cecil Bothwell, a member of Asheville City Council. McNeill and Bothwell favored generally tougher controls on gun ownership.

The other panelists included Rick Munger, behavioral health supervisor for the Buncombe County Health Center; and the two major pro-gun advocates — Jane Bilello, chairwoman of the Asheville Tea Party; and Brian Nemec, head of the Asheville Rifle Club.

The audience appeared to be mostly pro-gun. At one point, a woman in the audience asked how many people at the debate are members of the National Rifle Association. About one-third to one-half of the audience raised its hands.

Hyman’s’s first question was addressed to the crowd: “Is there anything that absolutely could have prevented what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary School” in Connecticut recently?

For the answer of “yes,” the clapping was loud, while it was more subdued for “no.”

Bilello noted her amazement that, “after 80-plus years of this discussion,” the apparent best solution experts were able to come up with is to “put up gun-free zone signs.”

When challenged by Hyman on her stance against gun-free zones marked by signage, Bilello did not back down. “Absolutely ... If you look at the horrific incidents that have happened in gun-free zones ... Gun-free zones have never worked — and never will. We need to get rid of gun-free zones.” Some in the audience cheered and applauded her comments.

The local tea party chief, who noted that she is a retired teacher, also said that “we need to get police officers in our schools. There are many retired law enforcement” officers who would be delighted to earn some extra spending money, while protecting American children, Bilello said.

Bothwell then entered the fray by emphasizing that he holds views on guns “diametrically opposite” to Bilello’s.

“After all these regulations, we’re still not safe,” he said. “If guns make people safe, then America would be the safest” country on the planet.

What’s more, the city councilman noted that “even police officers, who are trained, miss their targets a high percentage of the time.

“Having armed teachers is not the solution,” Bothwell said. “Look at Australia. When they had a mass murder a number of years ago, “they had voluntary buy-backs of guns from the public. Bothwell’s remarks were greeted with subdued applause.

At that point, a young girl was brought forward to ask Nemec, head of the rifle club, “What about semi-automatic guns — should they be banned?”

In response. the marksman was greeted with vigorous applause from the audience when he replied, “It’s interesting we’re having somebody up here who has very little knowledge of life.”

Nemec then said he would be willing to volunteer one day a week to provide security at a school to make it safer.

Regarding assertions that the presence of good guys with guns does not deter bad guys with guns, Nemec asked the crowd, “How many of you would think of pulling a gun in here, with all of these police officers” present? He added, “Most people who go in and hurt children are cowards,” who would never think of challenging someone also armed with a gun.

McNeill said, “When you talk about assault rifles, I see no place for those in our society ... I agree with generals (Stanley) McChrystal and Colin Powell” that “assault weapons are for killing lots of people quickly and effectively.”

WLOS’ Russ Bowen, who was monitoring the social media during the debate, noted Asheville resident Bernard Carman’s question of “How much of this do you blame on the media?”

Bothwell, who noted he is a former journalist, said, “Yes, the media does definitely ramp it up. The issue seems to be to ban guns completely — or not. I think that’s a fruitless approach. There must be a path forward.... Why not require that every gun-owner to buy liability insurance on each gun” that individual possesss “to make them take responsibility for their guns?”

While some applauded, others in the audience murmered negatively about Bothwell’s proposal to require liability insurance on guns.

Another question asked of the audience was: “Does popular culture contribute to the debate?” Again, the “yes” answer got the loudest clapping, while few clapped for the “no” side.

Bilello said the AR-15, which is often referenced as an assault weapon by those without gun experience, is a mere “hunting rifle,” once accessories are removed.

“These are not assault rifles,” Bilello said of the much-vilified AR-15s.

Joining the discussion was Buncombe County Sheriff Van Duncan, who said, “I think one of the very big problems is this debate ... One of the problems of the Brady bill is it dealt with cosmetical solutions, rather than the deep underlying causes.

In a reference to a question asked earlier, Duncan said, “The definition of an assault weapon is a rifle capable of fully automatic firing.”

A man in the audience observed, “I don’t know of any criminals who wo0uld be willing to sell back their firearms.” The man also said that “most health care has been reduced in a way” and wondered why gun-owners should be the ones asked to “pay the price.”

Hyman then asked the panelists if “mental health has been left out of the debate?”

Munger said that “mental health has been brought up in previous mass shootings. Studies show that “4 percent of people who are mentally ill are responsible for violence” in American society. However, “a normal person’s odds of committing violence is 7 percent,” he said.

The mental health specialist added that “they studied 62 mass shootings and found tha about 60 percent had mentail illness prior to shooting, so I think mental illness” bears consideration in the discussion.

A man from West Asheville in the audience said, “I’m a good, gun-loving American, as anyone else... At the same time, I see where guns don’t need to kill, but to incapacitate” the bad guys. He then asked, “Do you foresee a future where guns do not need to be lethal?”

Nemec replied, “You have to look at the 2nd Amendment. I think our first battle involved the British taking our guns .. The arms are there to protect against the government — and not just for personal protection.”

When many in the crowd cheered Nemec’s remarks, McNeill said, “To hear these people here clapping for — what seems to me — overthrowing the government” is deeply troubling to her.

Hyman asked Bothwell if there is a stigma attached to mental health that is keeping people who need counseling from getting it.

“There certainly is a stigma attached,” Bothwell replied. “I know my brother was bipolar ... He is dead now, but I don’t know if I would have shared that,” if he was still alive.

“My Dad, in his later years, had Parkinson’s Disease .. He told my Mom (that) he’d shoot people, so I got his guns and threw them in the lake.”

Continuing, Bothwell noted that many of the homeless and veterans suffer from mental health problems.

“So, somehow, we’ve got to overcome that stigma — it’s just a disease,” he said.

A man who identified himself as a firewarms salesman asked, “This whole great country was founded with the right to bear arms ... Does the 2nd Amendment still have value today?”

“Absolutely,” Bilello replied, “and that’s where we’re at today.”

She added, “Yes, we may have a mental health issue, but the real issue is that every person on the earth has the right to protect themselves. Maybe they (the gun opponents) should ask gun-control ‘experts’ like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot,” who, she said, were responsible for exterminating millions of people, most of whom lacked guns to fight back.

Grimacing, McNeill said, “Well, the rest of us have a right to live, too. The 2nd Amendment doesn’t say you have the right to have any kind of gun.”

“Wrong!” some audience members shouted in response to McNeill’s assertion.

Hyman asked, “Should public schoolteachers be armed?” to which the audience applauded loudly for “yes” and gave a more tepid response for “no.”

Joining the discussion, at that point, was Buncombe County School Superintendent Tony Baldwin, who asserted, “Personally or professionally, I don’t think that’s a good idea... I will say this, though, if we (ever) do have trained indviduals (in gun use) in our schools, which we do, I’d trust them.” His comments were greeted with light applause.

Baldwin then said, “I can assure you, having them in our school buildings, but not solely waiting for a situation like Sandy Hook,” is beneficial. For instance, he cited “the opportunity to form relationships for those officers” who provide security in the schools.

“All of our high schools and middle schools have resource officers,” he noted.

Hyman asked, “As a school superintendent, would you welcome resource officers in the elementary schools?”

“With our funding” limitations, Baldwin wondered where the money would come from for such an expenditure. However, he said he would be glad to have resource officers in each of the county’s elementary schools.

Returning to the question of arming teachers, Nemec prompted much laughter from some crowd members when he quipped, “On that, the way some teachers dress, I don’t know where they’d hide their gun.”

More seriously, Nemec said, “I have mixed emotions on whether they (school resource officers) should be in uniform ... If the bad guy comes in, the uniformed officer would be his first target.”

McNeill said, “If someone wasn’t in uniform, how would police know who to shoot” when they arrived on the scene? “That (Nemec’s concern) doesn’t make sense.”

Nemec shot back, verbally, “When the police arrived, there’d be two people shooting” and it would be easy for them to determine who the good and bad guys are.

Bothwell then said, “If guns are illegal, only outlaws will have guns — that’s a self-evident truism ... That’s why I don’t favor outlawing guns.” Some audience members could be heard to be grumbling over Bothwell’s different stances.

Undeterred, Bothwell asserted, “There are benefits to dealing with this in a pro-active way ... I think most of us are not in favor of having nuclear weapons” and other major weaponry.

Munger said, “For the most part, the rules and regulations are already in place (on buying guns) — we just need to enforce them better.

“I think there are a lot of things we can do. In North Carolina... you can be told by court order you must get mental health care.” he noted.

Someone in the audience said, “What’s being floated around Washington is, once you’re on that (mental health) list, you’re on that list for life,” meaning one never could own a gun again.

“These constitutional rights are inalienable. What gives you the right to tamper with what God put together? What are you going to do to get back to basics?”

Hyman asked the panelists, “How do we protect the rights of the people” and provide for the public safety?

McNeill said, “The criminals who get the guns need to be stopped ... Many people were not criminal until they used the gun in a criminal way.”

After a pause, she added, “There are other amendments besides the 2nd one.”

Sarcastically, a man in the audience shouted to McNeill, “The Supreme Court said weapons can be regulated. That’s why they’re going to confiscate them.”

When Hyman asked Bilello if she agreed with McNeill’s aforementioned comment, the tea party chief asserted, “No, absolutely not ... This is about protecting us — protecting the individual. We were born with inalienable rights.” She was greed with applause.

McNeil asked, “Why do we want to make it so easy for criminals and terrorists to get guns?”

As some in the crowd shouted their disagreement with McNeill, she added, “There are no background checks” for gun purchases.

Nemec said, “We have a society now where with the kids, there’s no God...” He said the new generation’s attitude is “I’m just a protoplasm and I should be able to take what I want.”

Hyman asked the audience to clap for the one of three possible solutions to the gun law issue, including increased mental health, which drew a light response; changes in gun mesures, next loudest; and more school security, loudest.

In a reference to Bothwell’s proposed liability insurance requirement for each gun one owns, a man said, “Three in 10 drivers on the road don’t have insurance. How many of the bad guys are going to get gun insurance?”

Bothwell asked, “How do you bring people together when there’s such a divide on the issue? This is one of the thornier ones.”

He added that “proof of insurance for drives” is required when renewing one’s license. “Regulations do make it more difficult.”

Further, Bothwell asserted, “Theres a hue resistance to national regulation and paranoia toward the national government.”

Regarding having teachers armed in the schools, Buncombe Sheriff Van Duncan said, “There’s a reason law enforcement doesn’t wear guns in a detention center.

“Gun control issues revolve more around access with safeguards put in place.”

Duncan also said that only 2 percent of school shootings involve assault weapons.

As the debate continued, Bothwell told an audience member, “I’m amused that you’re trying to paint me as someone who wants to take them all away. I’m not against gun ownership,” Bothwell noted.

McNeill said, “Well, in the Virginia Tech shooting, if had universal background checks ... If we could get rid of the high-capacity magazines, which are illegal

Her comments once again inspired some in the crowd to laugh at her reference to to a revolver having a high-capacity capalbility magazine.”